Dphoto Activity

[Steve Mitchell]

A very unique thing happened on Dphoto today. For the first time we went 24 hours without a new post. Ironically, the daily traffic on the site has risen slightly over the past few months, and membership has risen faster than it ever has. Yet ironically, it seems posting in the forum is down. Is there nothing more to say regarding photography? Your thoughts?

[rjgleason]

What I find unique to our forum is that there is a select small group of members who contribute to the forum while there are a multitude of members who post photos to the gallery and never initiate threads or add posts to existing threads.

Dphoto is (or was) IMO set up as an opportunity of many variables.....including to be educational, create a sense of community and give membership the advantageous chance of sharing work, ideas and opinions.

Membership and traffic statistics do not matter if participation stagnates.

[NikNikon]

I'm sure there is, personally I've been preoccupied with other things. I found it odd earlier today when I clicked on "todays threads" and it came up blank. I imagine the forum is in a temporary lull.

[Steve Mitchell]

Traffic is the number one priority. Different people have different needs and expectations, and Dphoto was created to try and serve a great variety of needs. The Photo Gallery gathers a fair amount of traffic, and is used as a "mini forum" as well...that's all good, and I appreciate that. The News (http://www.dphoto.us/news/) section draws more traffic than any section on the site.

[rjgleason]

Your initial post referred to the forum activity and the fact that it is down......What is the benefit of an increase in traffic activity (meaning reading news,other posts,viewing photos,etc.) and how does it make an impact without participation or contributing?

Membership and traffic statistics do not matter if participation stagnates.

These are my thoughts.

[Steve Mitchell]

The benifit of increased traffic is that is what generates the revenue for the site. It is the single most important component of keeping this site running. If traffic is not generated, potential forum participation is limited as well. The posting of photos is participation, and the reading of news is "Passive" participation. So we indeed have increased participation site wide, but forum posting participation has diminished. So my initial post was looking for opinions on why "Forum" participation is down, because site participation is up. It could also be said that even forum participation has not stagnated as much as it seems because the readership in the forum is still there, just posting is down.

Your initial post referred to the forum activity and the fact that it is down......What is the benefit of an increase in traffic activity (meaning reading news,other posts,viewing photos,etc.) and how does it make an impact without participation or contributing?

Membership and traffic statistics do not matter if participation stagnates.

These are my thoughts.

[dbevis]

I've never understood the ratio of members to posters. It is something like 3400 to 200 (considering anyone who's posted at least 25 times).

Perhaps the forum categories are not 'interesting' to most? Perhaps too broadly defined.

[Anders Östberg]

Maybe people here aren't confrontational enough? Rudeness and general bad manners
seems to work great to generate traffic on some other sites. :)

Personally I'm sort of inbetween purchases as well as inbetween photographic
ideas so to speak, so I'm at a temporary low when it comes to participating
on any site really.

[Steve Mitchell]

You are possibly correct. Does anyone else agree? Should the forum categories be re-structured? You are also correct in there being a ratio between members and active participants at any given time. That's one of the reasons sheer numbers are important.

I've never understood the ratio of members to posters. It is something like 3400 to 200 (considering anyone who's posted at least 25 times).

Perhaps the forum categories are not 'interesting' to most? Perhaps too broadly defined.

[Steve Mitchell]

I am grateful for the general lack of rudeness. However I think we can be more tolerant of differing views.

Maybe people here aren't confrontational enough? Rudeness and general bad manners
seems to work great to generate traffic on some other sites. :)

Personally I'm sort of inbetween purchases as well as inbetween photographic
ideas so to speak, so I'm at a temporary low when it comes to participating
on any site really.

[David C]

Maybe people here aren't confrontational enough? Rudeness and general bad manners
seems to work great to generate traffic on some other sites. :).

Actually, I think Anders has something there - I have also noticed that sites with lots of name-calling and heated arguments over confrontational photos generate inordinate amounts of traffic and topic responses...

So it is rather nice that we do not emulate this sort of "success" for traffic :)
(though that still leaves Steve with the problem of higher generated activity being better for advertising attractiveness etc...)

[gparr]

Thanks for starting this thread, Steve. I was going to start the same thread. I am frustrated and disappointed at the way forum discussions have dropped to a trickle in recent months. I've learned a tremendous amount about photography, and digital photography in particular, from the fine folks at dphoto. I also hope I've helped others along the way. I miss the days where there were several serious discussions going on all of the time that generated varying thoughts and were extremely educational. It seems like the "old guard" has run out of things to say and that the large number of new people have nothing to contribute or are not willing to participate. Maybe we need to bring images directly into the forum topics by having forums for landscapes, wildlife, etc. as other sites do. Though I don't know whether that would make much difference because comments on photos in the gallery have also dwindled to a trickle.

Another thing that's been bugging me lately is the quality of photography that's posted in the Gallery. It seems that in recent months, in particular, there has been a significant increase in what I would call snapshot/family photography. It just seems that these kinds of snapshot photos do little to further the cause of improving photography and that dphoto is simply being used as an online family album dump, which is not what I view to be the purpose of dphoto. I don't care if people post them, but I have no interest in looking at those types of photos, as they do nothing to help me learn. In most cases, they're posted by people who don't participate in any other way. I would like it if there was a way, and it's probably not possible, for those types of shots to be posted elsewhere. If people posted those types of shots because they wanted help, that would be fine, and several of us would be happy to help, I'm sure, but that's rarely, if ever the case.

In general, I've become concerned about the future of dphoto as a place to learn how to become a better photographer and think it's time to consider some serious revamping to try to generate better participation in the forums.

Enough of my rambling,
Gary

[gparr]

I have no interest in confrontational activity, either. I participate to learn, not fight. I would like it if there was more constructive criticism of images, but those sites where people are always fighting will never be part of my online activity.
Gary

[rjgleason]

The benifit of increased traffic is that is what generates the revenue for the site. It is the single most important component of keeping this site running. If traffic is not generated, potential forum participation is limited as well. The posting of photos is participation, and the reading of news is "Passive" participation. So we indeed have increased participation site wide, but forum posting participation has diminished. So my initial post was looking for opinions on why "Forum" participation is down, because site participation is up. It could also be said that even forum participation has not stagnated as much as it seems because the readership in the forum is still there, just posting is down.

I'm talking about the benefits to other members, not as ONE means to generate revenues for the site. Of course I know, more than many, that revenue generation is important for the site. Long ago WE talked (and I presented) about ideas for revenue generation. So please understand what I mean about an increase in traffic. Again, forum participation is and has been at a lull and that's not helping. I understood precisely what your initial post was in regard to and responded accordingly.

Readership has its own importance to the site, as does types of other traffic.......Participation is what makes (or generally helps to make) people coming back and joining in, thus gaining popularity for the site and increased membership and more $$ clicks and more forum activity.

Money clicks should not be the only way to generate revenue. (since we are on that subject, as well)

[Needy]

I feel that I should contribute more, but my skills and experience seem extremely lacking compared to other members. Therefore, I feel a little intimidated when contemplating responses. I don't think that there is anything that can be done to change it. But, whenever the "old guard" contribute I feel that whatever they have to say on a subject is probablly better than anything I could come up with. Just my two cents on the subject.
________
Water Bongs (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com/glass-bongs/)

[Steve Mitchell]

It's not. The reason I started this thread was for ideas of increasing forum posting, not money. I'd like to stay on topic. If traffic is not exposed to the forum, it can not grow. I am happy with the traffic. The success of the forum more than anything else on this site is out of my hands. People have to share things of interest. A thriving forum community comes from open, diverse and positive communication.

IMoney clicks should not be the only way to generate revenue. (since we are on that subject, as well)

[Rune]

You are possibly correct. Does anyone else agree? Should the forum categories be re-structured?

Well, for some of the latest threads I've posted, I had problems finding the relevant forum.

My calibration device question was one such thread, as was my question concerning night-time nature photography (I think that one wound up in the Canon forum because I was contemplating using the Canon flash system for the job...).

I've been meaning to say something, but have yet to come up with meaningful categories for you to consider.

[gparr]

I feel that I should contribute more, but my skills and experience seem extremely lacking compared to other members. Therefore, I feel a little intimidated when contemplating responses. I don't think that there is anything that can be done to change it. But, whenever the "old guard" contribute I feel that whatever they have to say on a subject is probablly better than anything I could come up with. Just my two cents on the subject.

Don't feel intimidated. It never hurts to support a point that's been made. I probably have too many posts in the past where I simply agreed with a statement or reiterated in a different way. I also appreciate when someone supports my point. Sometimes a response will generate a related question or concern. Provided it's on topic, ask that question or raise that concern. The important thing is to participate. You'll learn more, faster.
Gary

[rjgleason]

It's not. The reason I started this thread was for ideas of increasing forum posting, not money. I'd like to stay on topic. If traffic is not exposed to the forum, it can not grow. I am happy with the traffic. The success of the forum more than anything else on this site is out of my hands. People have to share things of interest. A thriving forum community comes from open, diverse and positive communication.

I didn't bring up the topic of money...you did....I just added my opinion to your comments about money.

As for the forum's success, of course, its the membership that has to make it successful.....that is what I indicated and presented in my initial post.

[FredG]

History
I think many of the original members embraced Dphoto as a place to escape the rudeness and confontation that some other sites had somehow attracted. I make a distinction between confrontation and differences of opinion. The former goes straight to the personal level, for which I have no tolerance. The latter sticks to things, rather than people, and can generate greatly spirited threads which in the end increase understanding (of both sides) and prove helpful to many. A Dphoto culture was quickly built on helpfulness, photo critique, experience sharing, and discussion of topics in the news. That's not to say there was no confrontation, but it was usually defused pretty quickly. Those principles have survived to today.

Ancient history
Stepping back several years, and looking at myself, I felt very intimidated as a newbie. I hesitated for a long time before hitting the enter key my first time. After a dozen or so posts, someone basically said I was stupid (I am not stupid, but my quesion may have been.) This caused me to go radio silent for a long time. Our culture welcomes the newbies, but the intimidation still exists. It takes quite a few posts to realize that it is OK to ask basic questions; that it is OK to ask the same question someone else asked and you didn't see; that it is OK to post on a digital forum even though you are still shooting film (we love ya, Josh!). Many of our members are accomplished and experienced. Discussions often take place at a pretty high level, which can further the intimidation factor.

Suggestion 1
I've been thinking that maybe a forum for the newbies would help. It doesn't even need to be segmented by topic. The expectations are that basic questions would be welcomed, not scorned; that advanced topics would not be posted here; that members would be expected to chime in with helpful explanations, links, and examples; that it would be a safe haven where newbies could get their feet wet hitting that enter key; that it would be the home for people at the early stages of the learning curve. I think forays into other forums would follow as learning increased and intimidation diminished.

Suggestion 2
There appear to be two main uses for the photo gallery: posting at a strictly personal level to share with friends and family, and posting to share with members and perhaps request a critique. I wonder if it makes sense to somehow split the gallery between these two uses (assuming Steve intends to support both). Those looking for critique, ideas, discussion would know which route to take without wading through the myriad of galleries intended to be personal. The random images and POTD would come only from the non-personal sites. A section called "Strictly Personal" comes to mind.

Suggestion 3
I miss the old Photographer's Notebook. I searched and found a few photoshop topics, but no posts since May. I would suggest 2 things: First, make it easier to find. Second, as members make references to helpful techniques or give brief descriptions, other members should encourage them to expand the description and post it in the PN. I think this could grow into a great reference section with lots of play.

[Steve Mitchell]

Thanks a lot Fred for your well constructed thoughts.

[Steve Mitchell]

Again, I am totally open to suggestions for tweeking the forum categories.

Well, for some of the latest threads I've posted, I had problems finding the relevant forum.

My calibration device question was one such thread, as was my question concerning night-time nature photography (I think that one wound up in the Canon forum because I was contemplating using the Canon flash system for the job...).

I've been meaning to say something, but have yet to come up with meaningful categories for you to consider.

[yodamom]

I'll put in a vote for a 'newbie' forum. I'm one who doesn't post often and has never set up a gallery - for the same reasons Needy noted. I do a lot of reading of the 'old guard' postings but do not feel that my skills or experience rate as such that I would offer a critique of what they post. I've not started a gallery because I view many of my shots to be in the category of snapshots and did not feel they were appropriate for this site and what I viewed its purpose to be.

That said, I've learned a lot since finding this site and may finally have some shots I feel are worthy to post. Time is a factor for sitting down at the computer and doing the work needed to post them. However, I still don't feel that I'm at a point where I would feel comfortable critiqueing someone else's work. That will come with time I suppose and as my comfort level rises with my own experience and skill.

[Steve Mitchell]

In an attempt to address the "newbie" issue, at least as it pertains to the Forum, there has been a Basic Digital Photography created...click here (http://www.dphoto.us/forum/showthread.php?threadid=4796).

I'll put in a vote for a 'newbie' forum. I'm one who doesn't post often and has never set up a gallery - for the same reasons Needy noted. I do a lot of reading of the 'old guard' postings but do not feel that my skills or experience rate as such that I would offer a critique of what they post. I've not started a gallery because I view many of my shots to be in the category of snapshots and did not feel they were appropriate for this site and what I viewed its purpose to be.

That said, I've learned a lot since finding this site and may finally have some shots I feel are worthy to post. Time is a factor for sitting down at the computer and doing the work needed to post them. However, I still don't feel that I'm at a point where I would feel comfortable critiqueing someone else's work. That will come with time I suppose and as my comfort level rises with my own experience and skill.

[Anders Östberg]

I was wondering what it could be called as "The Newbie Forum" would perhaps not be all that good.
Basic Digital Photography - good name, doesn't exclude "Oldies" either! :)

[gparr]

I've not started a gallery because I view many of my shots to be in the category of snapshots and did not feel they were appropriate for this site and what I viewed its purpose to be.

This statement makes me feel like I should clarify my previous statements. If beginners post images they view as "snapshots" with the purpose of getting feedback and learning so they can come back the next time with better shots, then post away, put them in the Critique forum, and you'll get help. I know I'll be happy to help. It's shots of the family picnic that are posted so Aunt Mable can look at them on her new computer that are of no interest to me. I'm no expert, but I'm more than happy to help anyone improve, if they're serious about doing so. So many here have helped me, and continue to do so. And I'm happy to do the same. I hope the new beginner forum will help you, and many others, overcome your hesitation to post.
Gary

[agesilaus]

I use the forums via RSS which only shows the original post and none of the comments. I think upgrading your RSS feed would pull in more traffic, show the comments and provide separate feeds for the forums.

[David C]

Fred's last post was very good - both measured and constructive.

In fact, it even made fairly redundant what I had intended to post on this topic - which was a view fairly similar to his "Suggestion 2" (ie to do with 'personal'-type galleries vs those posting photos primarily for sharing, technique discussion and possible critique).

I am sure that most of the primary users of Dphoto fall in the later category - not only because their typical contributions are aimed more at interaction than simply at photo storage, but also because it is obvious to anyone serious about photography that this site's intention is not about just 'storing' photos (eg how many photographers would regard an 800x600 downsize as adequate backup for their high-res images?).

Equivalently, there are a some galleries crammed full of scads of virtually identical pics (whether of sundry parties, wedding or car shows etc) - some of decent quality, others of far more questionable merit (ie as examples of photographic technique). The existence of such users does not necessarily need to be discouraged - as long as everyone abides by the posting rules, and such galleries do not end up monopolising the server space - since their site use and word-of-mouth recommendations can still be positives.

However, I think Fred's idea of allowing for a "Personal" subdivision of posts is a good one - depending on how technically achievable it is. I don't know much about how Dphoto is coded - but if it is possible, I imagine an 'opt-in' system might improve the presentation of recently posted photos and encourage more discussion than currently occurs (esp. if the Recent Photos page happens to get dominated by someone's latest party?).

This might consist of the default option, when uploading, for photos to not show in 'Recent Photos' or 'Today's Photos', and not later appear in 'Random Images' - but that there be an opt-in checkbox for those posters wishing to share their work, and have it appear in these selections. This could be extended to the current Members galleries - where members wishing to appear in Random Images, Featured Photos etc would have to go to somewhere in their profile or album setup and enable a feature such as "This gallery to appear in Random picture selection?"...

On a different note, I think it could be useful for encouraging Forum participation if a new pane was put into the 'Forums Home' page (perhaps between the Welcome user message and the start of the news items?). It would aggregate all of the forums into 4 or 5 main categories (one could be along the lines of the new 'Basic Digital Photography' section, and each Forum would be allocated to some higher level grouping) and link to the most recent post for each entire category.

Some sort of highlighting of past posts that were particularly useful or reference-worthy (eg a thread that happened to discuss some photographic technique in great detail) would also get noticed I think...

Cheers,
DC

[cox]

Steve, ironically, you seem to have generated the longest lived thread in recent memory with this topic. I too have noticed the lack of thread traffic, and agree it's a shame and we can improve - the "basics" section seems a great idea if people use it. I would like to see more use of the "critique" section by everyone - newbie and old-timers alike. I think that's where we all learn the most.

As is usual with people, I think that the fear of criticism/rejection probably prevents a lot of posts. I regularly see 2 registered users online, and XX unregistered... Are those tens of "lurkers" simply afraid of asking a "stupid" question, or being told their picture would be better critiqued with the delete button? If so, and I think it likely, I say to those folks that if you look at the participation here, it's constructive and supportive. That's why I have been here rather than FM and the other boards. I want to see your pictures! I want you to tell me that you think that I should clone the snot off the nose of my seal picture, that I underexposed the trees, whatever!

Dphoto has made me a better photographer, and I have more fun taking pictures as a result. Join in people :)

[Bruce Painter]

Like has been mentioned a couple of times. I sometimes do not post because I feel I do not have anything to add. Either because I have little or no knowledge about what is being asked or because I feel that the topic has already been answered by some of the many here that I feel are mush better photographers than I am. In general I do not post just to say that I agree with what someone else has posted, unless I get the impression that the origional poster may be "keeping count" of the answers in an attempt to decide what to do or not ot do.

I guess I have also been guilty of posting some snapshots (even by my standards) in my gallery but not so family can view them, as far as I know none of my family even knows about my gallery here. I do appriciate any feed back I have received, positive or negative, about any of my photos and I have learned from these comments and from the forums. I hope that a way to increase the participation in the forums can be found as I learn a lot from the questions asked here.

[pressman]

I like to post my pictures - but I don't talk much. Please don't take offence - I find the older you get, the less you have to say.

Pete

[MatsP]

Pete: Since your photos are excellent, we don't mind at all... ;-)


Seriously, tho'. I think most forums (and "person to person clubs" for that matter) have a tendency to be quiet at some times, and more active at other times. Members tend to discuss what's on their mind, then keep quiet when their question(s) have been answered.

Some people (like me) are more active in answering questions, others start discussions by asking/stating something, etc.

And I think, whilst Steve's concerned about the activity in the forum, we don't REALLY want a forum that is so busy that we can't all read it in a reasonable amount of time... ;-)

--
Mats

[Cathy_P]

I think that newbies should be encouraged to ask "how did you do that?". I see photo treatments all the time that I am curious how they were done. I've asked some pros questions like this and sometimes, I've gotten no response at all. That could keep you from asking anything again. When we post photos in the forums we should explain more technically what we did to get the shot or what were our thoughts when framing the shot. We could just invite newbies to ask questions.

[rjgleason]

I think that newbies should be encouraged to ask "how did you do that?". I see photo treatments all the time that I am curious how they were done. I've asked some pros questions like this and sometimes, I've gotten no response at all. That could keep you from asking anything again. When we post photos in the forums we should explain more technically what we did to get the shot or what were our thoughts when framing the shot. We could just invite newbies to ask questions.

Great comments and suggestions, Cathy. Some of the more talented here and Pros are always helpful when we ask whether in regard to the technical aspects of a shot or to be critiqued.

Another important item in my opinion is the ability to look at a shot taken and see the exif data for that particular shooting situation.....granted there are many variables that would, at another time, change the shot,but the particulars at the time of the shot are definitely helpful in several ways.

[rjgleason]

I like to post my pictures - but I don't talk much. Please don't take offence - I find the older you get, the less you have to say.

Pete

Pete.......your work speaks volumes for you and it is heard all over this site.

[FredG]

I like to post my pictures - but I don't talk much. Please don't take offence - I find the older you get, the less you have to say.

PeteThey say a picture is worth a thousand words. That understates the value of some of yours. :)

[pressman]

Thank you both for those kind words.

Pete

[MatsP]

Cathy,

I'm just trying to figure out why anyone (Pro or otherwise) wouldn't want to tell how they came up with a particular shot. I think it's just misguided protectionism - thinking that if they don't tell how it was created, they will be able to get more work than if someone else knows how it works. I think this may work if you have a genuinely unique photo/situation/technique, but it will not work for general photography. First of all, if it's not involving some really special technique, how come I can't just experiment until I come up with the same thing? Sure, it may take some number of experiments, and perhaps asking would solve it in seconds rather than hours. But if you REALLY want to know how something is done, you just have to work on the problem-solving/reverse-engineering part, and sooner or later you'll find the correct answer.

Obviously, in some cases, it's a case of knowing/judging the situation and getting the right setting - you may want a different timing for a shot of a slow-waltz than a fast polka if you want to get a motion-blurred shot of the dancers. This is something you have to LEARN/TRY for yourself.

Similarly, framing/postioning to catch some particular event will vary depending on the venue, perhaps weather/time of day, etc, etc. This is only covered by EXPERIENCE - which is why it's very hard to become a good photographer sitting in your comfy chair reading a book. Get out there and take photos... Share them with friends here and listen to those who know more - then go take more photos with the comments in mind... Hopefully, the result will get better and better, and you'll get pickier and pickier about what is a good result...

By helping others out, you also build friendships, which may come in handy at other times. Let's say Cathy is busy for a particular weekend of a wedding or some such, I would say it's 99% sure that she would not recommend going to a professional that was unfriendly and unhelpfull, and as certain that one that she's had friendly advise and suggestions from will get the business referral. Similarly if the client is asking for some setup that Cathy can't provide for some reason. You suggest people that you're happy working with, not the guys that didn't help you out, right?

--
Mats